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Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:35 pm
by Threxx
ollaxe wrote:
You think it's useless because you never use the DPCM. People who actually use it will most likely find this feature really helpful.


Completely false. Most of my covers use DPCM. See my most recent thread in the covers section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7xcIVJ6d9o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye_MKXGUXFI

More evidence to the contrary.

ollaxe wrote:Also, I got really irritated about your post stating that this feature would make us lazy fucks. In that case, we are all already lazy fucks by using computers to make music, or do anything for that matter. I mean, doing the hard work for us so we can focus on doing what we're doing (in this case, music) is one of the main points with computers. And working on computers gets more effective all the time, as programs add these features that some find useless while others use it every day.

My point is, if you wanna do everything the fuckin' hard way, don't use a computer to do it.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:36 pm
by retrodpc
ollaxe wrote:You think it's useless because you never use the DPCM. People who actually use it will most likely find this feature really helpful.

As someone who extensively abuses DPCM, I would absolutely never use this feature. It's too specific for one purpose.

Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:37 pm
by jaxcheese
I'd like to strongly agree with PA and add, although he covered this to some degree, that any feature or tool which makes an in-depth knowledge of the tracker less necessary to operate it and use it to its full extent would be counterproductive to promoting an ideal community: one of "power users" that understand all the technical workings of the tracker and "beginners" that can ask for help and receive clear instruction/explanation; with work and education, these "beginner" users can become more proficient users and gain a better understanding of the tracker, becoming "power users" themselves. Incorporating shortcuts and tricks that mask the actual technical functions of the tracker prevent people from putting in effort to actually learn about the tracker and how it works.

Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:45 pm
by sirocyl
PostApocolyptica wrote:That is not a calculator. That is lookup table.

Just quoting the title verbatim.

PostApocolyptica wrote:Before doing that, bear rule 2 c and d in mind:
    c. ) Before posting a reply, think "Is what I'm about to post helpful in any way?" If not, then don't post.
    d. ) Spend time on your post. Be clear, specific, and include an example if you think it would be helpful.

I'd argue rule 1 against those who go to these threads with a hostile, discouraging attitude, flamebaiting and dragging the discussion off topic until the thread gets locked.
Be encouraging, and supportive. If something runs against the rules, report it, and let the people in charge of this forum, judge whether or not something's violating the rules.

PostApocolyptica wrote:Considering this forum and the old forum had a large amount of requests most would deem useless, do not be surprised at the attitude towards more useless requests.

Emphasis mine. "Argumentum ad populum" ring a bell? The majority of users here are new, and appealing to the wrong majority doesn't sit well, and is fallacious.

PostApocolyptica wrote:As easy as it would be to attack someone on a request thread like these based on their abilities with FamiTracker, such a thing would be fallacious. The "attacking" is merely an addressal of the functionality and usefulness of the feature itself. As explained by enough users on this thread, the feature does not appear to have much use outside of very niche cases. "Doing things the hard way" is learning how to use the software.

I can reasonably argue that those of us advocating this change know how to use the software, and are aware of the limitations and mechanics of the NES. It's not a shortcut or 'get out of jail free card', it's a matter of automation, in principle. I could probably do the same thing with a few minutes into an Autohotkey script, but I believe that it could be useful for some people.
It's not a question of scope creep; we're not adding useless features that detract or otherwise stray from the core of FamiTracker's ideals. It's a button that does a thing.

Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:48 pm
by jaxcheese
"A button that does a thing" is unnecessary and counter-intuitive when there is already a sequence of more clearly-labeled buttons with more definite functions that can be used for more specific purposes by the user. If you really need to make your own automation make it, but there's no reason to incorporate it in to the main build to confuse users and mask the basic functions it is automating.

Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:50 pm
by MiniMacro
It really doesn't keep users from learning how to use the software if it is a part of the software.

Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:54 pm
by PostApocolyptica
sirocyl wrote:
PostApocolyptica wrote:Considering this forum and the old forum had a large amount of requests most would deem useless, do not be surprised at the attitude towards more useless requests.

Emphasis mine. "Argumentum ad populum" ring a bell? The majority of users here are new, and appealing to the wrong majority doesn't sit well, and is fallacious.

I never said that I thought they were useless because other people thought they were. I make my judgements myself, thank you. I was commenting on the attitude shared by multiple users on requests they find useless.

sirocyl wrote:I can reasonably argue that those of us advocating this change know how to use the software

The original poster did not indicate a sufficient use for the added "feature", nor did they demonstrate sufficient knowledge of DPCM.

sirocyl wrote:It's not a shortcut or 'get out of jail free card', it's a matter of automation, in principle.

It is a "shortcut" in the same way any automated process reduces work time.

sirocyl wrote:I could probably do the same thing with a few minutes into an Autohotkey script, but I believe that it could be useful for some people.

Release the "feature" in your own fork of FamiTracker if that is the case.

sirocyl wrote:we're not adding useless features that detract or otherwise stray from the core of FamiTracker's ideals. It's a button that does a thing.

Demonstrate its usefulness properly and one may accept it as "not useless".

Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:56 pm
by jaxcheese
That's like saying that people who use only the .midi import function know how to use famitracker, simply because the .midi import function is a feature of famitracker: there's a difference between knowing how to use the software and knowing how to use the software well.

EDIT: My post was in refernce to MiniMacro's previous post, not PA's immediately before mine.

Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:57 pm
by sirocyl
jaxcheese wrote:"A button that does a thing" is unnecessary and counter-intuitive when there is already a sequence of more clearly-labeled buttons with more definite functions that can be used for more specific purposes by the user. If you really need to make your own automation make it, but there's no reason to incorporate it in to the main build to confuse users and mask the basic functions it is automating.


That's fine, but FamiTracker masks most of the underlying technical knowledge of the NES, and abstracts it down to a format that is more in line with music-creation, than programming and changing registers on the APU.

Re: "Apply to all slots" for DPCM

Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:59 pm
by MiniMacro
Okay, I probably didn't word that right.
If someone is making a song, they might use this button for its intended purpose.
It does the same function as the sequence of buttons it's intended to replace.